[MURG] Cortex activity

[digfarenough]

Thomas: Brains don't crash exactly the way computer
programs do, but when overwhelmed minds go irrational.
In that case it is not loss of all information, but
priorities, goals, etc. go all mixed up. The most
tragic example is when the person becomes dangerous to
others or self destructive.


right, but that's not at all what you were arguing, you were saying computers are superior to brains, minds had nothing to do with it


Thomas: I agree. You don't want to store memories the
same way if there is a better way. I also realize that
memories are are stored all over the brain which is
why we need the cortex. If the brain is the computer -
then the cortex is the screen. The cortex is an organ
meant to retrive information from the inside odf the
brain.


but the way memories are stored is an inherent part of cortical cognitive processing, I'm not sure there is a better way without drastically changing everything

cortex is just as much a computer as the rest of the brain.. I'm not sure you're being consistant, first you want just the cortex and want to get rid of the brain, now you're saying the information is inside the brain and the cortex is just a screen for that


> Thomas: In a paired system it would be possible to
> stop the computer part while allowing the brain to
> think what to do next.
> 

here's where "true names" by vinge comes up, he describes what it might be like to go from running your mind on a big powerful system to going back to a normal brain.. I mention it cause you may find it interesting..

but I'm not sure I see how this is possible.. I think you should write out in technical detail exactly what you're proposing to see if there are inconsistancies.. I wouldn't call what you're doing uploading if you can just turn off the computer and everything is fine


Thomas: Not necessarily. I imagine if the computer is
turned of - the brain would simply operate the way it
does now. The on/off option would be necessary for the
safety of the experiment.


the brain would grow to depend on information from the computer if the information is two way, to turn the computer off would be like a lobotomy


Thomas: No I haven't read it, but I will try to find
it. As far as I know Vernor Vinge is the first person
who visualised the concept of singularity back in
1993. 

vinge coined the term, but I think the idea has been around longer in one form or another..


> 
Eric:
> >, the problem is that at *best*,
> > the brain would use the computer as an addition to
> > its neural network and would become inexorably
> tied
> > to your identity...
> 
> Thomas: That would bring us very close to my vision
> of
> mind uploading.
> 

but this goes against what you're saying elsewhere.. are you proposing two different experiments/ideas in these emails?


Thomas: I am not ignoring most of the brain. I will
repeat the library analogy: Suppose the cortex is the
librarian - the conscious - and the inside of the
brain is the rest of the library - the subconscios -
all the books on shelves not currently read. One would
be useless without the other. But I think we can say
that the current - conscious - mind is the result of
cortical operation. Notice that at any given time we
are busy doing and thinking of limited number of
issues ..... ignoring the rest of what is stored in
the brain. 


personally I don't use the word subconscious because of its freudian ties, I prefer non-conscious for processing that we are not aware of, and pre-conscious for things like senory data coming in before it reaches higher centers, like inferotemporal cortex for vision

and I think your analogy is faulty, the cortex stores most memories (or at least many) as well as processing information, although I will grant that some parts of the brain can be safely ignored (brainstem for instance.. the myencephalon probably isn't too important for mind uploading), but things like the thalamus, the hippocampus, basal ganglia, and many other smaller parts inside the brain do important processing that you can't necessarily get to through the cortex, in fact it is likely that some of these areas are important for consciousness (that's a guess, not based on anything I've read except for vague memories of the "dynamic core" theory of consciousness from a guy at madison)


Thomas:
Yes - some information is instinctual - genetically
encoded. This information didn't come to the brain via
the cortex. The learned information however comes thru
sensory inputs, hits the cortex and gets reflected
back into the brain to be stored. Once stored it
becomes subconscious until later retrieved.
(out of sight - out of mind). The third kind of
information is that which results from internal
synthesis of the pieces of information stored. This is
the creative work. It would explain how creative ideas
suddenly "flash" in our heads. It also proves that the
subconscious is not only the stored data, but some
intensive thinking - data processing goes on under the
cortex.


no, sensory memories are stored in cortex, in the association areas (or associative areas.. something like that.. I can never remember..)

the noncortical information I was talking about before isn't genetic stuff, I mean other things that are stored elsewhere in the brain, important non-conscious processes

you seem to think that the cortex does consciousness and the rest of the brain stores memories and keeps you alive.. this is quite not so

I think a lot of information you consider "subconscious" in fact has a large impact on conscious thinking.. just look at a glass of water and consider all you know without being explicitly conscious of it, you know it'll break if you drop it, you know that it is indeed a glass with water, you know the water can spill, you know that you could pick up the glass and drink it, you know that it's transparent so what you're seeing is the other side, not the outside of the glass, and many other things...


Thomas: I think it will be difficult, but possible. I
agree that the most difficult part of the experiment
will be to establish smooth and coherent communication
between the brain amd the computer.

if you think knowledge download will be possible, propose a way of doing it.. as in all things, I could be wrong, but I really don't see it being possible

at *best* I think you would have to simulate reading a book or taking a class in something and change the subjective flow of time so that a year's worth of classes seem like a second, however, I don't know much about how we experience time so that could be not possible..


> Eric:
> what makes you think your talents in mechanical
> design are somehow seperable from other parts of
> you?

Thomas: 
As you say "parts of you" you already indicate that
the mind is a system made of components. If this is
the case the components are at least theoretically
separable. Most of our mind is in charge of simply
keeping us alive, but then there is that part of us
which makes us unique in our fields. In case of our
talents and professional abilities - this is the part
that is really useful to the rest of the world.

I said "parts of you" because you were assuming that they exist, not that I was.. I don't think that things like this are that easily isolated

based on what do you say that most of the mind is in charge of keeping us alive? (I presume you mean brain, not mind.. they are different things)


Thomas: So it is not really about directional
confussion - but about proper words to describe it.
Then you could use a program helping you with better
word selection. Once you picture the direction in your
head - on your cortex the computer would pick it up
and flash "L" as a feedback.


that would be no more helpful than my current means of determining which side is which..


> Thomas: Running out of time - I will finsh the rest
later........



I'm not sure I'll be able to continue this much longer.. I think you need to get better acquainted with how the brain is currently thought to work.. perhaps reading a physiology textbook (like carlson's "physiology of behavior") and/or a book on memory (such as eichenbaum and cohen's "from conditioning to conscious recollection")

your ideas remind me of old ideas I had before I found out how we currently believe the brain operates

oh, one other thing I should add.. do you plan on opening up the skull to insert this mesh of electrodes? cause a good deal of the cortex is folded inside the brain, and isn't out in the open.. for instance, the visual area that I believe you want to probe is located medially in the brain, in the place where the two hemispheres are facing each other


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