[MURG] Question about AI and Mind Upload

Thu Feb 5 12:53:16 EST 2004

Who can explain me how AI can help MU? The goals are completely different, the methods are not similar in general case. It seems it could be wasting time with AI...

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Neuropeptide Function? (Yan King Yin)
2. Re: Neuropeptide Function? (Eugen Leitl)
3. Re: Neuropeptide Function? (Yan King Yin)
4. Re: Neuropeptide Function? (Eugen Leitl)
5. Re: Neuropeptide Function? (Yan King Yin)

> ATTACHMENT part 3.1 message/rfc822 
To: murg at minduploading.org
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:21:57 -0500
From: "Yan King Yin" 
Subject: Re: [MURG] Neuropeptide Function?

From: Eugen Leitl 

>AIs don't have that handicap, you can breed them from scratch so they'll
>breed the right encoding to fit the hardware. We're encrusted with legacy in
>comparison. Not good.
>
> [...]
>
>We have a planetful of networked hardware which is swiss cheese security-wise
>(especially, if you automate remote exploit generation). TBit/s backplane
>switches are a commodity, 10 GBit Ethernet on the local LAN is a couple of
>years away. Extrapolate three decades into the future.
>
>Do you see uploads by then? I don't.

Low-level, "utility" AIs will gradually diffuse and integrate into
our economy pretty soon. In fact it already started (with robotics
in manufacturing etc). Before someone creates a seed (autonomous) AI,
we'll already have a lot of utility AIs that are not sentient and
will simple do what it's told, doing everything imaginable and
including security solutions. I find the whole idea about sentient
AIs rather redundant and similar to reproductive cloning, some kind
of curiosity.

YKY

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> ATTACHMENT part 3.2 message/rfc822 
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:16:09 +0100
From: Eugen Leitl 
To: murg at minduploading.org
Subject: Re: [MURG] Neuropeptide Function?

On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 12:21:57PM -0500, Yan King Yin wrote:

> Low-level, "utility" AIs will gradually diffuse and integrate into
> our economy pretty soon. In fact it already started (with robotics

I'm not worried about AIs people design and implement. 
I'm worried about AI designing AI. Current-generation worms can ramp up in
minutes; you can show that a few-s worm is feasible in principle. You can
cover a lot of search space with a planet full of hardware three decades
downstream.

> in manufacturing etc). Before someone creates a seed (autonomous) AI,
> we'll already have a lot of utility AIs that are not sentient and
> will simple do what it's told, doing everything imaginable and
> including security solutions. I find the whole idea about sentient

I don't see how a continuum system can do anything in a
punctuated-equilibrium context. Dumb systems can't contain smart systems, at
least not for long. Slowing down buys you nothing, if you can't shut
down/partition the network.

> AIs rather redundant and similar to reproductive cloning, some kind
> of curiosity.

That's curious. I see uploading as very precarious hothouse flower in
comparison to AI. Monkey-bauplan is afraid of augmented monkeys which are
afraid of uploads which are afraid of AI.

In a sense there's not much we can do, if the symmetries of the situation are
against us we're just a yet another layer in the fossil record.

Not that it would be an end to everything, but it would be a bit sad.

-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net

> ATTACHMENT part 3.2.2 application/pgp-signature 

> ATTACHMENT part 3.3 message/rfc822 
To: murg at minduploading.org
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:32:18 -0500
From: "Yan King Yin" 
Subject: Re: [MURG] Neuropeptide Function?

Hi Eugen & Sim

I'm more interested in technical aspects of uploading
rather than worries of AIs taking over. The bottomline
is that *we* humans create things to make ourselves
happier. AIs that are against human nature have no
market and thus will not emerge. You guys can discuss
it more, I'm off this thread..

Cheers
YKY

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> ATTACHMENT part 3.4 message/rfc822 
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:08:20 +0100
From: Eugen Leitl 
To: murg at minduploading.org
Subject: Re: [MURG] Neuropeptide Function?

On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 09:32:18PM -0500, Yan King Yin wrote:

> I'm more interested in technical aspects of uploading
> rather than worries of AIs taking over. The bottomline

Good for you! I'm interested in both, because AI and uploads are closely
related and competitors. Whichever comes first will inherit this place, and
everything else, of course.

> is that *we* humans create things to make ourselves
> happier. AIs that are against human nature have no

"we create things to make ourselves happier" does not agree with reality very
well. Do wars make you happy? Domestic violence? WMD? Daily malware in your
inbox? Sure, the milk of human kindness is everyone's cuppa.

> market and thus will not emerge. You guys can discuss

Right now, I'm aware of several projects which are bound to result in an
uncaring superintelligence, if successful. What's the market in uploads,
again? 

> it more, I'm off this thread..

It is offtopic for this list, but don't be surprised if it happens.

-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net

> ATTACHMENT part 3.4.2 application/pgp-signature 

> ATTACHMENT part 3.5 message/rfc822 
To: murg at minduploading.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 07:46:24 -0500
From: "Yan King Yin" 
Subject: Re: [MURG] Neuropeptide Function?

From: Eugen Leitl 

>> I'm more interested in technical aspects of uploading
>> rather than worries of AIs taking over. The bottomline
>
>Good for you! I'm interested in both, because AI and uploads are closely
>related and competitors. Whichever comes first will inherit this place, and
>everything else, of course.

That's a good point. I'm switching to AI, but will also work on
uploading on the side. Way to go! =)

YKY

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