[MURG] Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #379 - 5 msgs

[Dick Pelletier]

I refer to memories, personality, and feelings as non-physical
elements, because I consider them to be only information. I compare
our neurons to a storage system – not unlike a CD. Neurons can receive
and store information, and understanding these processes is essential
to learning how to retrieve this information – unaltered – and copy it
onto another "CD", or housing unit. But I agree, this may not be an
ideal candidate for an "X" prize. Comments please, Dick,
futuretalk at cox.net



On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:01:02 -0400, murg-request at minduploading.org
<murg-request at minduploading.org> wrote:
> Send MURG mailing list submissions to
>        murg at minduploading.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        murg-request at minduploading.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        murg-admin at minduploading.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of MURG digest..."
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #378 - 3 msgs (Dick Pelletier)
>   2. Re: Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #378 - 3 msgs (Eric Zilli)
>   3. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Sim Bamford)
>   4. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Eric Zilli)
>   5. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Yan King Yin)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:39:34 -0700
> From: Dick Pelletier <dick.pelletier at gmail.com>
> To: murg at minduploading.org
> Subject: [MURG] Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #378 - 3 msgs
> Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> 
> Most of us believe that someday science will learn to upload memories,
> personality, and feelings â€" all the non-physical elements that
> describe a human being. But first, we need to identify the neuronal
> activities that create and process these elements. How about awarding
> a prize for neuron developments that bring us closer towards
> understanding how to find and identify these neuronal activities?
> Dick Pelletier, futuretalk at cox.net
> 
> On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:01:02 -0400, murg-request at minduploading.org
> <murg-request at minduploading.org> wrote:
> > Send MURG mailing list submissions to
> >        murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >        http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >        murg-request at minduploading.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >        murg-admin at minduploading.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of MURG digest..."
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. mind uploading x prize? (Eric Zilli)
> >   2. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Sam Gorton)
> >   3. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Eric Zilli)
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 21:40:12 -0400
> > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > Subject: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > The X Prize Foundation, which recently awarded it's $10 million dollar
> > prize to SpaceShipOne is starting a new series of prizes. They're
> > accepting suggestions for the nature of the contests on their site
> > http://www.wtnxprize.org/
> >
> > Here's a quote from the page:
> >
> > "Potential types of challenges?
> > Here is a very rough and incomplete list of the sorts of challenges
> > that might be appropriate:
> > * Medical challenges, such a cure for cancer or other major diseases.
> > * Technological "holy grails", such as artificial intelligence,
> > teleportation, molecular assemblers (true nanotechnology), cold
> > fusion, or a believable virtual reality system
> > * Major global challenges, such as the various UN Millennium
> > Development Goals (MDGs) announced by the world's leaders at the UN in
> > 2000 at the Millennium Summit."
> >
> > I think mind uploading fits in nicely with the sort of thing they're
> > after. Perhaps one or more of us should suggest it as a challenge. The
> > exact challenge should perhaps be something like the automated
> > scanning and emulation of a rat brain. The challenge naturally
> > couldn't be about humans, but rats should make a reasonable test
> > animal.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > --
> > Eric Zilli
> > Hasselmo Lab - Computational Neurophysiology
> > Center for Memory and Brain
> > Boston University
> > 2 Cummington St.
> > Boston MA, 02215
> > digfarenough at gmail.com -- www.digfarenough.com
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 10:49:52 -0400
> > From: Sam Gorton <sgorton at grey-havens.net>
> > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 09:40:12PM -0400, Eric Zilli wrote:
> > >
> > > I think mind uploading fits in nicely with the sort of thing they're
> > > after. Perhaps one or more of us should suggest it as a challenge. The
> > > exact challenge should perhaps be something like the automated
> > > scanning and emulation of a rat brain. The challenge naturally
> > > couldn't be about humans, but rats should make a reasonable test
> > > animal.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> >
> > I think that's a really good idea - it does fit in well with the
> > X-Prize theme.
> >
> > The difficulty I see is in defining "success" precisely enough that
> > there's no argument in who the first winner is.
> >
> > This would also be an opportunity to talk to potential corporate
> > sponsors and ask them to put up money for a mind-uploading X-prize.
> >
> > --
> > Sam Gorton
> > sgorton at grey-havens.net
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 11:41:29 -0400
> > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > Good point about defining success.
> >
> > If we wanted to make it complicated, we could set some criteria for
> > determining that, for instance, a rat has been successfully uploaded,
> > to list two:
> > * if the rat had an easily identifiable personality, one could check
> > that the upload acts in the same way
> > * if the rat was trained on tasks X and Y, but not W or Z, the upload
> > should perform well on tasks X and Y, but poorly on W and Z
> > * if the effect of drug X is Y (a list of reproducible effects on the
> > rat in tasks or in general), the effect of simulating drug X on the
> > upload should also be Y
> >
> > Thus a successful team would be the first to demonstrate going from
> > live rat to an upload that meets the above criteria (or others like
> > it).
> > A problem is that unlike with SpaceShipOne, there's no discrete,
> > public event that can be held to demonstrate a success. The uploading
> > would probably happen behind closed doors and we would only see the
> > uploadee as the result. In this situation could the awarders of the
> > prize be confident that the goal has actually been met and not faked
> > in some way?
> >
> > We could also go for a simpler goal: uploading and simulating C.
> > Elegans. This goal is reachable even with today's technology, but it
> > may not be big enough to have an effect. The technology actually
> > needed to dismantle and scan a brain (or nondestructively scan it, if
> > you're into that) wouldn't be needed here. This goal would only
> > require the ability to simulate an organism, not to actually upload
> > it. Behavioral criteria as described above would be less decisive here
> > as the organism is almost too simple to determine if the upload
> > actually reproduces the specific worm that was uploaded.
> > Also, this goal has already been attempted by at least two groups
> > (MURG and Kitano, Hamahashi, and Luke (1998)
> > (http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/seanl/papers/pce-alife.pdf)) so it isn't
> > as novel and big as I'd like to see an X Prize be.
> >
> > Just further thoughts.
> >
> > On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 10:49:52 -0400, Sam Gorton <sgorton at grey-havens.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think that's a really good idea - it does fit in well with the
> > > X-Prize theme.
> > >
> > > The difficulty I see is in defining "success" precisely enough that
> > > there's no argument in who the first winner is.
> > >
> > > This would also be an opportunity to talk to potential corporate
> > > sponsors and ask them to put up money for a mind-uploading X-prize.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Gorton
> > > sgorton at grey-havens.net
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MURG mailing list
> > > MURG at minduploading.org
> > > http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Eric Zilli
> > Hasselmo Lab - Computational Neurophysiology
> > Center for Memory and Brain
> > Boston University
> > 2 Cummington St.
> > Boston MA, 02215
> > digfarenough at gmail.com -- www.digfarenough.com
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MURG mailing list
> > MURG at minduploading.org
> > http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> >
> > End of MURG Digest
> >
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:47:33 -0400
> From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> To: murg at minduploading.org
> Subject: Re: [MURG] Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #378 - 3 msgs
> Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> 
> I'm not sure it's fair to call memories, personality, and feelings
> nonphysical, since you go on to say taht neuronal activities create
> them. That sounds pretty physical to me.
> The search for the biological substrates of these sort of things is
> already well funded by the NIH, NIMH, etc. They hand out grant after
> grant to labs to research them, so in a sense, this "prize" is already
> being handed out day after day. Indeed, while you make it sound like
> we've no idea where these things come from, we already have a lot of
> partial answers.
> 
> Also, the way you phrased it makes it very difficult to decide when a
> prize should be handed out. Don't *all* discoveries bring us closer to
> your stated goal?
> The X prize exists not to fund current progress toward a goal, but to
> celebrate it finally being met (and to entice people into pursuing it
> by offering money and some amount of fame).
> 
> On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:39:34 -0700, Dick Pelletier
> <dick.pelletier at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Most of us believe that someday science will learn to upload memories,
> > personality, and feelings â€" all the non-physical elements that
> > describe a human being. But first, we need to identify the neuronal
> > activities that create and process these elements. How about awarding
> > a prize for neuron developments that bring us closer towards
> > understanding how to find and identify these neuronal activities?
> > Dick Pelletier, futuretalk at cox.net
> >
> 
> --
> Eric Zilli
> Hasselmo Lab - Computational Neurophysiology
> Center for Memory and Brain
> Boston University
> 2 Cummington St.
> Boston MA, 02215
> digfarenough at gmail.com -- www.digfarenough.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 17:49:53 +0100
> From: Sim Bamford <sim at plaything.co.uk>
> To: murg at minduploading.org
> Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> 
> From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> 
> >>The challenge naturally
> >couldn't be about humans, but rats should make a reasonable test
> >animal.
> >
> >
> 
> Why couldn't the challenge be about humans?
> 
> Sincerely
> Simeon Bamford
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:58:14 -0400
> From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> To: murg at minduploading.org
> Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> 
> Yeah, I realized after I sent that that it *could* be about humans,
> but it would make it more difficult.
> To meet the goal of uploading a human, you actually have to upload a
> human. I'm a believer in destructive uploading, so that means they'd
> have to kill at least one volunteer--and who is going to volunteer
> their life for something that may not work?
> The other option is to upload newly deceased bodies, which is more
> doable, but that still means if you have to go through n people before
> it works, you need to find n newly dead people who have agreed to give
> you their body.
> The ethical questions about killing a subject (even if they agree to
> it, c.f. assisted suicide) would make it difficult research to do in
> this country. Using the already dead may get around that, but it may
> be difficult to get the subjects.
> 
> Given all that, I thought it more reasonable (and far easier) to have
> the goal animal be a rat (or even a monkey).
> 
> The transition moving from a rat to a human wouldn't be trivial, but
> success on a rat would yield all the basic technology needed on a
> human (I think).
> 
> On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 17:49:53 +0100, Sim Bamford <sim at plaything.co.uk> wrote:
> > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> >
> > >>The challenge naturally
> > >couldn't be about humans, but rats should make a reasonable test
> > >animal.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Why couldn't the challenge be about humans?
> >
> > Sincerely
> > Simeon Bamford
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MURG mailing list
> > MURG at minduploading.org
> > http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> >
> 
> --
> Eric Zilli
> Hasselmo Lab - Computational Neurophysiology
> Center for Memory and Brain
> Boston University
> 2 Cummington St.
> Boston MA, 02215
> digfarenough at gmail.com -- www.digfarenough.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> From: "Yan King Yin" <y.k.y at lycos.com>
> To: murg at minduploading.org
> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:24:03 -0500
> Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> 
> >Eric wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > We could also go for a simpler goal: uploading and simulating C.
> > Elegans. This goal is reachable even with today's technology, but it
> > may not be big enough to have an effect. The technology actually
> > needed to dismantle and scan a brain (or nondestructively scan it, if
> > you're into that) wouldn't be needed here. This goal would only
> > require the ability to simulate an organism, not to actually upload
> > it. Behavioral criteria as described above would be less decisive here
> > as the organism is almost too simple to determine if the upload
> > actually reproduces the specific worm that was uploaded.
> > Also, this goal has already been attempted by at least two groups
> > (MURG and Kitano, Hamahashi, and Luke (1998)
> > (http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/seanl/papers/pce-alife.pdf)) so it isn't
> > as novel and big as I'd like to see an X Prize be.
> >
> > Just further thoughts.
> 
> I think $10M is insufficient for a rat upload, even assuming we
> already have a dataset (has the rat brain been scanned recently?).
> We won't be able to buy enough computing power for the simulation,
> unless you're going to run it extremely slow.
> 
> Still I think the prize is a good idea. I'm currently working on
> a machine vision project based on artificial neural nets, which
> may be applicable to cell recognition.
> 
> YKY
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
> http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MURG mailing list
> MURG at minduploading.org
> http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> 
> End of MURG Digest
>