[MURG] Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #380 - 2 msgs
Dick Pelletier
dick.pelletier at gmail.com
Mon Oct 11 12:36:08 EST 2004
I do not believe it will be necessary to destroy the "host" in order
to retrieve information to upload into a new "housing unit". Once
researchers identify all the neuronal interactions that enable recall
of events, emotion responses, analysis abilities, and other thinking
processes; the copying process could be reduced to a computer
challenge. Granted, this research is not within today's technical
abilities, but it will not be too far off, given new supercomputer
powers, which are continually pushing the envelope. I believe that
sometime between ten and thirty years into the future, this "copying"
technology will emerge, and mind uploading will become a simple task.
Dick, futuretalk at cox.net.
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:01:03 -0400, murg-request at minduploading.org
<murg-request at minduploading.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Sim Bamford)
> 2. Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #379 - 5 msgs (Dick Pelletier)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:37:42 +0100
> From: Sim Bamford <sim at plaything.co.uk>
> To: murg at minduploading.org
> Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
>
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> <html>
> <head>
> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
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> <pre wrap="">>Yeah, I realized after I sent that that it <b
> class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>could<span
> class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> be about humans,
> but it would make it more difficult.
> To meet the goal of uploading a human, you actually have to upload a
> human. I'm a believer in destructive uploading, so that means they'd
> have to kill at least one volunteer<
>
> When you say you're a believer in destructive uploading do you mean that you think destructive uploading technology will mature sooner, or do you have a philosophical doubt regarding identity in the case of non-destructive uploading? Personally I have both of these questions in mind, nevertheless for the reason you give I think that such a prize should be for the first group to achieve a non-destructive "exact" simulation of an individual.
>
> >The transition moving from a rat to a human wouldn't be trivial, but
> success on a rat would yield all the basic technology needed on a
> human (I think).<
>
> I agree that success on a rat would yield all the basic technology - resolution of scanning / recording technique is probably the biggest issue, the extra computational power required to run a bigger brain will probably become available in due course. But from the point of view of a prize, would the X-Prize have been so interesting / enticing / inspiring if it had been the first group to give a rat two consecutive rides up to 100km?
>
> Simeon Bamford
> Postgraduate Research Student
> Neuroinformatics Doctoral Training Centre
> Edinburgh University
>
> </pre>
> </body>
> </html>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:33:47 -0700
> From: Dick Pelletier <dick.pelletier at gmail.com>
> To: murg at minduploading.org
> Subject: [MURG] Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #379 - 5 msgs
> Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
>
> I refer to memories, personality, and feelings as non-physical
> elements, because I consider them to be only information. I compare
> our neurons to a storage system â€" not unlike a CD. Neurons can receive
> and store information, and understanding these processes is essential
> to learning how to retrieve this information â€" unaltered â€" and copy it
> onto another "CD", or housing unit. But I agree, this may not be an
> ideal candidate for an "X" prize. Comments please, Dick,
> futuretalk at cox.net
>
> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:01:02 -0400, murg-request at minduploading.org
> <murg-request at minduploading.org> wrote:
> > Send MURG mailing list submissions to
> > murg at minduploading.org
> >
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> > murg-request at minduploading.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > murg-admin at minduploading.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of MURG digest..."
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #378 - 3 msgs (Dick Pelletier)
> > 2. Re: Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #378 - 3 msgs (Eric Zilli)
> > 3. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Sim Bamford)
> > 4. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Eric Zilli)
> > 5. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Yan King Yin)
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:39:34 -0700
> > From: Dick Pelletier <dick.pelletier at gmail.com>
> > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > Subject: [MURG] Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #378 - 3 msgs
> > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > Most of us believe that someday science will learn to upload memories,
> > personality, and feelings â€" all the non-physical elements that
> > describe a human being. But first, we need to identify the neuronal
> > activities that create and process these elements. How about awarding
> > a prize for neuron developments that bring us closer towards
> > understanding how to find and identify these neuronal activities?
> > Dick Pelletier, futuretalk at cox.net
> >
> > On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:01:02 -0400, murg-request at minduploading.org
> > <murg-request at minduploading.org> wrote:
> > > Send MURG mailing list submissions to
> > > murg at minduploading.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > murg-request at minduploading.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > murg-admin at minduploading.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of MURG digest..."
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. mind uploading x prize? (Eric Zilli)
> > > 2. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Sam Gorton)
> > > 3. Re: mind uploading x prize? (Eric Zilli)
> > >
> > > -- __--__--
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 21:40:12 -0400
> > > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> > > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > > Subject: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> > >
> > > The X Prize Foundation, which recently awarded it's $10 million dollar
> > > prize to SpaceShipOne is starting a new series of prizes. They're
> > > accepting suggestions for the nature of the contests on their site
> > > http://www.wtnxprize.org/
> > >
> > > Here's a quote from the page:
> > >
> > > "Potential types of challenges?
> > > Here is a very rough and incomplete list of the sorts of challenges
> > > that might be appropriate:
> > > * Medical challenges, such a cure for cancer or other major diseases.
> > > * Technological "holy grails", such as artificial intelligence,
> > > teleportation, molecular assemblers (true nanotechnology), cold
> > > fusion, or a believable virtual reality system
> > > * Major global challenges, such as the various UN Millennium
> > > Development Goals (MDGs) announced by the world's leaders at the UN in
> > > 2000 at the Millennium Summit."
> > >
> > > I think mind uploading fits in nicely with the sort of thing they're
> > > after. Perhaps one or more of us should suggest it as a challenge. The
> > > exact challenge should perhaps be something like the automated
> > > scanning and emulation of a rat brain. The challenge naturally
> > > couldn't be about humans, but rats should make a reasonable test
> > > animal.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Eric Zilli
> > > Hasselmo Lab - Computational Neurophysiology
> > > Center for Memory and Brain
> > > Boston University
> > > 2 Cummington St.
> > > Boston MA, 02215
> > > digfarenough at gmail.com -- www.digfarenough.com
> > >
> > > -- __--__--
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 10:49:52 -0400
> > > From: Sam Gorton <sgorton at grey-havens.net>
> > > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > > Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 09:40:12PM -0400, Eric Zilli wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think mind uploading fits in nicely with the sort of thing they're
> > > > after. Perhaps one or more of us should suggest it as a challenge. The
> > > > exact challenge should perhaps be something like the automated
> > > > scanning and emulation of a rat brain. The challenge naturally
> > > > couldn't be about humans, but rats should make a reasonable test
> > > > animal.
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > I think that's a really good idea - it does fit in well with the
> > > X-Prize theme.
> > >
> > > The difficulty I see is in defining "success" precisely enough that
> > > there's no argument in who the first winner is.
> > >
> > > This would also be an opportunity to talk to potential corporate
> > > sponsors and ask them to put up money for a mind-uploading X-prize.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Gorton
> > > sgorton at grey-havens.net
> > >
> > > -- __--__--
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 11:41:29 -0400
> > > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> > > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > > Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> > >
> > > Good point about defining success.
> > >
> > > If we wanted to make it complicated, we could set some criteria for
> > > determining that, for instance, a rat has been successfully uploaded,
> > > to list two:
> > > * if the rat had an easily identifiable personality, one could check
> > > that the upload acts in the same way
> > > * if the rat was trained on tasks X and Y, but not W or Z, the upload
> > > should perform well on tasks X and Y, but poorly on W and Z
> > > * if the effect of drug X is Y (a list of reproducible effects on the
> > > rat in tasks or in general), the effect of simulating drug X on the
> > > upload should also be Y
> > >
> > > Thus a successful team would be the first to demonstrate going from
> > > live rat to an upload that meets the above criteria (or others like
> > > it).
> > > A problem is that unlike with SpaceShipOne, there's no discrete,
> > > public event that can be held to demonstrate a success. The uploading
> > > would probably happen behind closed doors and we would only see the
> > > uploadee as the result. In this situation could the awarders of the
> > > prize be confident that the goal has actually been met and not faked
> > > in some way?
> > >
> > > We could also go for a simpler goal: uploading and simulating C.
> > > Elegans. This goal is reachable even with today's technology, but it
> > > may not be big enough to have an effect. The technology actually
> > > needed to dismantle and scan a brain (or nondestructively scan it, if
> > > you're into that) wouldn't be needed here. This goal would only
> > > require the ability to simulate an organism, not to actually upload
> > > it. Behavioral criteria as described above would be less decisive here
> > > as the organism is almost too simple to determine if the upload
> > > actually reproduces the specific worm that was uploaded.
> > > Also, this goal has already been attempted by at least two groups
> > > (MURG and Kitano, Hamahashi, and Luke (1998)
> > > (http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/seanl/papers/pce-alife.pdf)) so it isn't
> > > as novel and big as I'd like to see an X Prize be.
> > >
> > > Just further thoughts.
> > >
> > > On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 10:49:52 -0400, Sam Gorton <sgorton at grey-havens.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think that's a really good idea - it does fit in well with the
> > > > X-Prize theme.
> > > >
> > > > The difficulty I see is in defining "success" precisely enough that
> > > > there's no argument in who the first winner is.
> > > >
> > > > This would also be an opportunity to talk to potential corporate
> > > > sponsors and ask them to put up money for a mind-uploading X-prize.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sam Gorton
> > > > sgorton at grey-havens.net
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > MURG mailing list
> > > > MURG at minduploading.org
> > > > http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Eric Zilli
> > > Hasselmo Lab - Computational Neurophysiology
> > > Center for Memory and Brain
> > > Boston University
> > > 2 Cummington St.
> > > Boston MA, 02215
> > > digfarenough at gmail.com -- www.digfarenough.com
> > >
> > > -- __--__--
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MURG mailing list
> > > MURG at minduploading.org
> > > http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> > >
> > > End of MURG Digest
> > >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:47:33 -0400
> > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > Subject: Re: [MURG] Re: MURG digest, Vol 1 #378 - 3 msgs
> > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > I'm not sure it's fair to call memories, personality, and feelings
> > nonphysical, since you go on to say taht neuronal activities create
> > them. That sounds pretty physical to me.
> > The search for the biological substrates of these sort of things is
> > already well funded by the NIH, NIMH, etc. They hand out grant after
> > grant to labs to research them, so in a sense, this "prize" is already
> > being handed out day after day. Indeed, while you make it sound like
> > we've no idea where these things come from, we already have a lot of
> > partial answers.
> >
> > Also, the way you phrased it makes it very difficult to decide when a
> > prize should be handed out. Don't *all* discoveries bring us closer to
> > your stated goal?
> > The X prize exists not to fund current progress toward a goal, but to
> > celebrate it finally being met (and to entice people into pursuing it
> > by offering money and some amount of fame).
> >
> > On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:39:34 -0700, Dick Pelletier
> > <dick.pelletier at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Most of us believe that someday science will learn to upload memories,
> > > personality, and feelings â€" all the non-physical elements that
> > > describe a human being. But first, we need to identify the neuronal
> > > activities that create and process these elements. How about awarding
> > > a prize for neuron developments that bring us closer towards
> > > understanding how to find and identify these neuronal activities?
> > > Dick Pelletier, futuretalk at cox.net
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Eric Zilli
> > Hasselmo Lab - Computational Neurophysiology
> > Center for Memory and Brain
> > Boston University
> > 2 Cummington St.
> > Boston MA, 02215
> > digfarenough at gmail.com -- www.digfarenough.com
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 17:49:53 +0100
> > From: Sim Bamford <sim at plaything.co.uk>
> > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> >
> > >>The challenge naturally
> > >couldn't be about humans, but rats should make a reasonable test
> > >animal.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Why couldn't the challenge be about humans?
> >
> > Sincerely
> > Simeon Bamford
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:58:14 -0400
> > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > Yeah, I realized after I sent that that it *could* be about humans,
> > but it would make it more difficult.
> > To meet the goal of uploading a human, you actually have to upload a
> > human. I'm a believer in destructive uploading, so that means they'd
> > have to kill at least one volunteer--and who is going to volunteer
> > their life for something that may not work?
> > The other option is to upload newly deceased bodies, which is more
> > doable, but that still means if you have to go through n people before
> > it works, you need to find n newly dead people who have agreed to give
> > you their body.
> > The ethical questions about killing a subject (even if they agree to
> > it, c.f. assisted suicide) would make it difficult research to do in
> > this country. Using the already dead may get around that, but it may
> > be difficult to get the subjects.
> >
> > Given all that, I thought it more reasonable (and far easier) to have
> > the goal animal be a rat (or even a monkey).
> >
> > The transition moving from a rat to a human wouldn't be trivial, but
> > success on a rat would yield all the basic technology needed on a
> > human (I think).
> >
> > On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 17:49:53 +0100, Sim Bamford <sim at plaything.co.uk> wrote:
> > > From: Eric Zilli <digfarenough at gmail.com>
> > >
> > > >>The challenge naturally
> > > >couldn't be about humans, but rats should make a reasonable test
> > > >animal.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why couldn't the challenge be about humans?
> > >
> > > Sincerely
> > > Simeon Bamford
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MURG mailing list
> > > MURG at minduploading.org
> > > http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Eric Zilli
> > Hasselmo Lab - Computational Neurophysiology
> > Center for Memory and Brain
> > Boston University
> > 2 Cummington St.
> > Boston MA, 02215
> > digfarenough at gmail.com -- www.digfarenough.com
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 5
> > From: "Yan King Yin" <y.k.y at lycos.com>
> > To: murg at minduploading.org
> > Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:24:03 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [MURG] mind uploading x prize?
> > Reply-To: murg at minduploading.org
> >
> > >Eric wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > We could also go for a simpler goal: uploading and simulating C.
> > > Elegans. This goal is reachable even with today's technology, but it
> > > may not be big enough to have an effect. The technology actually
> > > needed to dismantle and scan a brain (or nondestructively scan it, if
> > > you're into that) wouldn't be needed here. This goal would only
> > > require the ability to simulate an organism, not to actually upload
> > > it. Behavioral criteria as described above would be less decisive here
> > > as the organism is almost too simple to determine if the upload
> > > actually reproduces the specific worm that was uploaded.
> > > Also, this goal has already been attempted by at least two groups
> > > (MURG and Kitano, Hamahashi, and Luke (1998)
> > > (http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/seanl/papers/pce-alife.pdf)) so it isn't
> > > as novel and big as I'd like to see an X Prize be.
> > >
> > > Just further thoughts.
> >
> > I think $10M is insufficient for a rat upload, even assuming we
> > already have a dataset (has the rat brain been scanned recently?).
> > We won't be able to buy enough computing power for the simulation,
> > unless you're going to run it extremely slow.
> >
> > Still I think the prize is a good idea. I'm currently working on
> > a machine vision project based on artificial neural nets, which
> > may be applicable to cell recognition.
> >
> > YKY
> > --
> > _______________________________________________
> > Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
> > http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > MURG at minduploading.org
> > http://minduploading.org/mailman/listinfo/murg
> >
> > End of MURG Digest
> >
>
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